*** OFFICIAL *** Druff & Drexel Show Thread for 2/19/2013 - $60 Freeroll - Rich Muny/PPA Debate!

[simpdog]

Everytime Druff posts, the % he lost the debate by goes up.

Druff, honestly it looks like at best you have 30% on your side and 70% against. Quit being so stubborn/arrogant and saying anyone who doesn't agree with you is trolling you.

You have opinions/beliefs about UB/AP and you are standing by them. That's fine, we understand.

But on the other hand if people bring up items (you losing the debate, any reference to peterdc/jasep) understand that they are entitled to their own opinions too.

Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions. That's why I'm fine with having members here that don't like or respect me -- as long as you respect the rules and vision of the site. That's also why I never delete messages here that are critical of me.

I like you and respect you....but in threads like these you sometimes stifle people's opinions who are against you on the topic at hand.

[haleylh]

Here's some questions for Pappas. Easy-peasy. Maybe I'll have a few more later but this is at the top of my list.

Questions for John Pappas / PPA...

I definitely encourage you to email these and any other questions you have to John Pappas. Per his offer to you, I'm sure he'll be more than happy to oblige.

Rich, I posted the questions publicly for a specific reason. I simply don't want to allow anyone -- and I mean anyone, not specifically the PPA -- to be able to throw a ridiculous accusation at me like I've doctored e-mails or something. I was slapped with a false allegation regarding a PPA/Pappas mention in a piece I did just a couple of weeks ago, and I'm not going to allow a repeat to occur.

The questions are posted publicly. It's easy enough for you to go Ctrl-C / Ctrl-V and send them on to John. If you're declining to do that, then just state that.

[tony bagadonuts]

Me: you cant so i say bull shit
Me: bullsheet
WillieMcFML: this was from 05 or 06 and registered from an email account (aol) that i no longer use or have access to
Me: boolll sheets

[Rollo Tomasi]

The UB thing wasn't trivial, right?

Do you believe that the PPA effectively contacted its million member base and properly communicated the dangers of playing there?

If so, why can't anyone on 2+2 or anywhere else recall that happening? Why do all of the anti-UB activists feel that the PPA dropped the ball with their response?

I saw your repeated criticism of me in the chat during the show, but I am perplexed how you could have listened to that UB segment and came away with any opinion other than that he was full of it.

I'm a long standing PPA member and I never got an email about UB
The problem with debating tactics is they are just good for debates but not winning hearts and minds

Steve-O ask Rich if any new members joined the PPA after last nights debate

my perception wither true or not is that the PPA is in the tank for the Site and Casino owners and nothing changed after last nights debate

Druff it would be a good idea to use a two minute clock if you ever decide to do one of these again, Muny seems to have a severe case of blufferitis

If I have any future debates (with anyone, not just talking about Rich), one thing I will implement is a shot clock.

Each party (myself included) will have a time limit to speak -- something like 3 minutes -- before being cut off and the other person gets a chance. This will force both people to focus directly on the real issues and make their words count. More importantly, it will become more listenable for everyone.

I'm glad you like my idea Todd

[Rollo Tomasi]

Here's some questions for Pappas. Easy-peasy. Maybe I'll have a few more later but this is at the top of my list.


Questions for John Pappas / PPA

1) Where can one find the annual financial filings for the Poker Players Alliance, a nonprofit organization, for the years 2009-2012? A link to this information does not seem to be present on the PPA website.

2) How much money did the PPA receive from corporate contributors PokerStars and Full Tilt, on a year-by-year basis? Please itemize: “Full Tilt’s contributions for the calendar year 2010 = $$$$” and so on. It’s okay to lump contributions to the PPA, to PokerPac, and to third-party organizations such as D’Amato’s firm together as a single total. I’m more interested in how much Stars and Tilt spent in $$$ that went through the PPA.

3) When did the PPA’s John Pappas first meet SunFirst Bank payment processor Jeremy Johnson? What was the nature of that meeting?

4) When did the PPA’s John Pappas first have contact with Jeremy Johnson, in the form of e-mails, phone calls, or through another medium? What was the nature of that contact, and for what purpose?

5) When did the PPA’s John Pappas first have contact with Mark Shurtleff and John Swallow, the former and present Utah Attorneys General? Was it due to Pappas’s prior work with Dittus Communications (and if so, on behalf of what lobbying cause), or was it through Pappas’s work as a staffer for Arizona Congressman John Shadegg?

I really should have consulted Haley before this interview. The Pappas questions wouldn't have likely been answered (since Rich isn't him, and can reasonably claim to not know), but I really wish I knew about #1 above, regarding the financial filings being unavailable.

I would be really curious to see these, as well. And if they're not made available, why is that?

I also wish I pressed harder for Rich to give the exact percentage of donations that came from Stars/Tilt.

No worries, though. Rich is posting in this thread and I would indeed like to know the answer to these, even if he can't answer the Pappas questions.

common Druff the fact that the PPA a 501C nonprofit does not link their filings and
doesn't disclose how much PS and FPT contributes is prema faciae evidence that the PPA is in the tank for the sites, who went before Congress Lederer, Duke et al, it's just so obvious

[TheEngineer]

I definitely encourage you to email these and any other questions you have to John Pappas. Per his offer to you, I'm sure he'll be more than happy to oblige.

Rich, I posted the questions publicly for a specific reason. I simply don't want to allow anyone -- and I mean anyone, not specifically the PPA -- to be able to throw a ridiculous accusation at me like I've doctored e-mails or something. I was slapped with a false allegation regarding a PPA/Pappas mention in a piece I did just a couple of weeks ago, and I'm not going to allow a repeat to occur.

The questions are posted publicly. It's easy enough for you to go Ctrl-C / Ctrl-V and send them on to John. If you're declining to do that, then just state that.

Who'd accuse you of doctoring your own questions? I think you could just send him a link to your post, but I'll go ahead and send them to him if it will help.

[haleylh]

Rich, I posted the questions publicly for a specific reason. I simply don't want to allow anyone -- and I mean anyone, not specifically the PPA -- to be able to throw a ridiculous accusation at me like I've doctored e-mails or something. I was slapped with a false allegation regarding a PPA/Pappas mention in a piece I did just a couple of weeks ago, and I'm not going to allow a repeat to occur.

The questions are posted publicly. It's easy enough for you to go Ctrl-C / Ctrl-V and send them on to John. If you're declining to do that, then just state that.

Who'd accuse you of doctoring your own questions? I think you could just send him a link to your post, but I'll go ahead and send them to him if it will help.

That's cool, much appreciated.

[TheEngineer]

...PPA is in the tank for the sites...

PPA is not in the tank for anyone. That being said, Druff said no one can start an effective poker group without outside donations, so it seems to be we have the best of both worlds -- a subsidized advocacy effort and a player organization that is not in the tank for anyone but the players.

I'm glad we're fighting back for our rights. Plenty of people would like to ban online, home, B&M, and charity poker.

I do get that some will always want more and that no one group will satisfy everyone, which is why I'm pleased that PPA enjoys the support of so much of the community.

[Dan Druff]

...PPA is in the tank for the sites...

PPA is not in the tank for anyone. That being said, Druff said no one can start an effective poker group without outside donations, so it seems to be we have the best of both worlds -- a subsidized advocacy effort and a player organization that is not in the tank for anyone but the players.

I'm glad we're fighting back for our rights. Plenty of people would like to ban online, home, B&M, and charity poker.

I do get that some will always want more and that no one group will satisfy everyone, which is why I'm pleased that PPA enjoys the support of so much of the community.

Would you care to share at this point the exact percentages of the PPA's 2012 funding that came from online poker sites, members, and "other" sources not fitting into either of those categories?

[GrenadaRoger]

so to summarize my position on why i think the PPA is best ignored

disclosure of financial support & operating/program expeditures not made; (release your IRS Forms 990 and include the part with officer compensation)

self-described small organization with only a few employees (most low paid) and several volunteers (thus lots of money left for a select
few)

admits to paying lots of outside consultants

one person actually doing the a lot of work, Muny, gets paid enough to live comfortably, and he is not the top dog in the PPA (one can only imagine what that person pays themself)

progress towards legalization marginal and may have occured without the PPA

PPA likely goes out of existance if poker legalized


---too many doubts for me to get past

[tamiller866]

Here's some questions for Pappas. Easy-peasy. Maybe I'll have a few more later but this is at the top of my list.


Questions for John Pappas / PPA

1) Where can one find the annual financial filings for the Poker Players Alliance, a nonprofit organization, for the years 2009-2012? A link to this information does not seem to be present on the PPA website.

2) How much money did the PPA receive from corporate contributors PokerStars and Full Tilt, on a year-by-year basis? Please itemize: “Full Tilt’s contributions for the calendar year 2010 = $$$$” and so on. It’s okay to lump contributions to the PPA, to PokerPac, and to third-party organizations such as D’Amato’s firm together as a single total. I’m more interested in how much Stars and Tilt spent in $$$ that went through the PPA.

3) When did the PPA’s John Pappas first meet SunFirst Bank payment processor Jeremy Johnson? What was the nature of that meeting?

4) When did the PPA’s John Pappas first have contact with Jeremy Johnson, in the form of e-mails, phone calls, or through another medium? What was the nature of that contact, and for what purpose?

5) When did the PPA’s John Pappas first have contact with Mark Shurtleff and John Swallow, the former and present Utah Attorneys General? Was it due to Pappas’s prior work with Dittus Communications (and if so, on behalf of what lobbying cause), or was it through Pappas’s work as a staffer for Arizona Congressman John Shadegg?

I really should have consulted Haley before this interview. The Pappas questions wouldn't have likely been answered (since Rich isn't him, and can reasonably claim to not know), but I really wish I knew about #1 above, regarding the financial filings being unavailable.

I would be really curious to see these, as well. And if they're not made available, why is that?

I also wish I pressed harder for Rich to give the exact percentage of donations that came from Stars/Tilt.

No worries, though. Rich is posting in this thread and I would indeed like to know the answer to these, even if he can't answer the Pappas questions.

I wish you had consulted me, I could probably write an entire book on PPA tactical blunders, questioning their ethics, sincerity, or even results is a non-starter though IMO.

Their strategical errors go way beyond the 'skill game' mythology, this is an organization that spent most of it's budget lobbying Republicans, not to pass a poker bill, but to pass an online gambling prohibition bill with a carve-out for the 'skill game' of poker.

I don't need to advise you on how that idea was flawed, but Harry met with Republicans before they released their platform to ensure they included internet gambling, with the idea that Republicans would pass the ban in the House and he could amend an exclusion for Nevada regulated poker.

The PPA went ballistic when that platform was released! How dare the Republican party seek to limit the freedoms of poker players in their homes!! Attacking the platform that was designed to achieve their own goal became the number one priority right up until the election, virtually ensuring that the bill Reid needed wouldn't be introduced in the House.

On top of that, the whole idea was that the Reid/Kyl bill either be tacked on to a house prohibition or some other piece of must-pass House legislation, but even before anyone (including the PPA) had seen the bill, they were ralleying the troops to notify their elected representatives to 'support the Reid/Kyl bill' - a bill whose only hope of becoming law was that the opposition to it didn't become aware of it's existence.

In the end, their boneheaded mistakes probably didn't make a difference, and even if they did it's probably for the best - Reid/Kyl was a bad bill for players IMO - and learning about the bill forced States to step up with their own legislation.

Now that States are actually passing legislation, a Federal bill might actually be realistic, a better Federal bill than the one Kyl agreed to support, so once again to the results oriented, the PPA comes out smelling like roses, even having pissed all over themselves tactically at every step of the way.

[haleylh]

Since Friday and Saturday have passed with no response here from Pappas, I have also e-mailed the above questions to him. If he hasn't appeared here by the close of EST business hours on Tuesday (or otherwise contacted me), I'll take that as a implied refusal to answer the questions.

[Baron Von Strucker]

Since Friday and Saturday have passed with no response here from Pappas, I have also e-mailed the above questions to him. If he hasn't appeared here by the close of EST business hours on Tuesday (or otherwise contacted me), I'll take that as a implied refusal to answer the questions.

Maby he is away.

More likly he had a look at your questions and comments on this site and saw what a rude cow you are and decided not to answer them.
.

Also please feel free to post your financial info in as much detaile as posable and any crimes you may have committed
Are you for or against gay's? have you ever cheeted the government? Thongs or bloomers? Burgers or hotdogs?
More enemy's than frend's? Women over men? Do you usually supersize?

[Rollo Tomasi]

I really should have consulted Haley before this interview. The Pappas questions wouldn't have likely been answered (since Rich isn't him, and can reasonably claim to not know), but I really wish I knew about #1 above, regarding the financial filings being unavailable.

I would be really curious to see these, as well. And if they're not made available, why is that?

I also wish I pressed harder for Rich to give the exact percentage of donations that came from Stars/Tilt.

No worries, though. Rich is posting in this thread and I would indeed like to know the answer to these, even if he can't answer the Pappas questions.

In the end, their boneheaded mistakes probably didn't make a difference, and even if they did it's probably for the best - Reid/Kyl was a bad bill for players IMO - and learning about the bill forced States to step up with their own legislation.

Now that States are actually passing legislation, a Federal bill might actually be realistic, a better Federal bill than the one Kyl agreed to support, so once again to the results oriented, the PPA comes out smelling like roses, even having pissed all over themselves tactically at every step of the way.

was it a good bill for the sites miller

Since Friday and Saturday have passed with no response here from Pappas, I have also e-mailed the above questions to him. If he hasn't appeared here by the close of EST business hours on Tuesday (or otherwise contacted me), I'll take that as a implied refusal to answer the questions.

maby he is away.

More likly he had a look at your questions and comments on this site and saw what a rude cow you are and decided not to answer them.
.

Also please feel free to post your financial info in as much detaile as posable and any crimes you may have committed
Are you for or against gay's? have you ever cheeted the government? Thongs or bloomers? Burgers or hotdogs?
More enemy's than frend's? Women over men? Do you usually supersize?

you really crossed the line on this one baron it's time to give up the drugs

[Pooh]

Since Friday and Saturday have passed with no response here from Pappas, I have also e-mailed the above questions to him. If he hasn't appeared here by the close of EST business hours on Tuesday (or otherwise contacted me), I'll take that as a implied refusal to answer the questions.

Maby he is away.

More likly he had a look at your questions and comments on this site and saw what a rude cow you are and decided not to answer them.
.

Also please feel free to post your financial info in as much detaile as posable and any crimes you may have committed
Are you for or against gay's? have you ever cheeted the government? Thongs or bloomers? Burgers or hotdogs?
More enemy's than frend's? Women over men? Do you usually supersize?

[haleylh]

Since Friday and Saturday have passed with no response here from Pappas, I have also e-mailed the above questions to him. If he hasn't appeared here by the close of EST business hours on Tuesday (or otherwise contacted me), I'll take that as a implied refusal to answer the questions.

Maby he is away.

More likly he had a look at your questions and comments on this site and saw what a rude cow you are and decided not to answer them.
.

Also please feel free to post your financial info in as much detaile as posable and any crimes you may have committed
Are you for or against gay's? have you ever cheeted the government? Thongs or bloomers? Burgers or hotdogs?
More enemy's than frend's? Women over men? Do you usually supersize?

Rude? If you say so. From my perspective I'm being absolutely no-nonsense about digging down to the bottom of this, and after Pappas's false allegations about me in a PocketFives piece a couple of weeks ago, he's forfeited his chance for undue politeness.

Mind that one of the reasons I posted the questions here is because he and the PPA invited me to participate in a no-holds-barred interview, and when they offered such an interview, I get to choose the terms -- therefore written responses to publicly posted questions, it is. Pappas can answer them or not, and honest to Pete, I don't really care if he does. But since he and the PPA were able to react immediately when they had the chance to slag me, I figured they don't deserve an infinite response period. The end of Tuesday would be five full days, and that's plenty, a day per question.

As for your name-calling, that's easy enough to plonk.

[Dan Druff]

Don't worry about Baron. He's a EuroTroll.

Rich, perhaps you can contact John Pappas and ask him if he's willing to create an account and respond to Haley's questions here. He doesn't have to participate actively in the thread, like you did. He can just make a one-and-done post responding to her questions, and I imagine everyone will be happy with that.

[TheEngineer]

Maby he is away.

More likly he had a look at your questions and comments on this site and saw what a rude cow you are and decided not to answer them.
.

Also please feel free to post your financial info in as much detaile as posable and any crimes you may have committed
Are you for or against gay's? have you ever cheeted the government? Thongs or bloomers? Burgers or hotdogs?
More enemy's than frend's? Women over men? Do you usually supersize?

Rude? If you say so. From my perspective I'm being absolutely no-nonsense about digging down to the bottom of this, and after Pappas's false allegations about me in a PocketFives piece a couple of weeks ago, he's forfeited his chance for undue politeness.

Geesh Haley...I get attacked every single day. When you're out there in public, it comes with the territory.

Promising a vengeful, retaliatory piece probably isn't the best way to get Pappas to sit down for an interview. He may think he won't get a fair shake, for some reason. Just sayin'.

Mind that one of the reasons I posted the questions here is because he and the PPA invited me to participate in a no-holds-barred interview, and when they offered such an interview, I get to choose the terms -- therefore written responses to publicly posted questions, it is. Pappas can answer them or not, and honest to Pete, I don't really care if he does. But since he and the PPA were able to react immediately when they had the chance to slag me, I figured they don't deserve an infinite response period. The end of Tuesday would be five full days, and that's plenty, a day per question.

He offered an interview, not a forum debate.

[TheEngineer]

... and I imagine everyone will be happy with that.

I don't know what it would take to make everyone here happy, but I don't suspect a forum post would be the silver bullet.

[haleylh]

Geesh Haley...I get attacked every single day. When you're out there in public, it comes with the territory.

Promising a vengeful, retaliatory piece probably isn't the best way to get Pappas to sit down for an interview. He may think he won't get a fair shake, for some reason. Just sayin'.

He offered an interview, not a forum debate.

That's LOL bad funny, Rich. My questions might have been tough, but there was absolutely nothing unfair about them, and I have no interest in being spin-doctored into oblivion. There was no "debate" planned, and a written interview format is very legitimate, though of course you know that.

Seems like "no holds barred" wasn't really the plan, eh?