*** OFFICIAL *** Druff & Drexel Show Thread for 2/19/2013 - $60 Freeroll - Rich Muny/PPA Debate!

[haleylh]

Here's some questions for Pappas. Easy-peasy. Maybe I'll have a few more later but this is at the top of my list.


Questions for John Pappas / PPA

1) Where can one find the annual financial filings for the Poker Players Alliance, a nonprofit organization, for the years 2009-2012? A link to this information does not seem to be present on the PPA website.

2) How much money did the PPA receive from corporate contributors PokerStars and Full Tilt, on a year-by-year basis? Please itemize: “Full Tilt’s contributions for the calendar year 2010 = $$$$” and so on. It’s okay to lump contributions to the PPA, to PokerPac, and to third-party organizations such as D’Amato’s firm together as a single total. I’m more interested in how much Stars and Tilt spent in $$$ that went through the PPA.

3) When did the PPA’s John Pappas first meet SunFirst Bank payment processor Jeremy Johnson? What was the nature of that meeting?

4) When did the PPA’s John Pappas first have contact with Jeremy Johnson, in the form of e-mails, phone calls, or through another medium? What was the nature of that contact, and for what purpose?

5) When did the PPA’s John Pappas first have contact with Mark Shurtleff and John Swallow, the former and present Utah Attorneys General? Was it due to Pappas’s prior work with Dittus Communications (and if so, on behalf of what lobbying cause), or was it through Pappas’s work as a staffer for Arizona Congressman John Shadegg?

[haleylh]

"PPA worked with FairPlay USA..."

That would be Caesars' "astroturf" lobbying organization, which did not exist in terms of having actual members. It was an artificial corporate entity, a "fake" lobbying organization, if you will. I'm surprised Rich would even bring it up.

A few weeks ago, the PPA boys invited me to do a no-holds-barred interview. Tell you what. For the sake of openness, how about if I post a handful of questions here and Pappas answers them here in written form?

That's what lobbyists are, how is representing a corporate entity being a "fake" lobbying group?

Because Fairplay USA called itself a "grass roots" lobbying group, when the only roots it had went (presumably) to Loveman's office. That's what astroturfing is. The whole organization was a lie, and the PPA supported it from Day 1.

[Steve-O]

That's what lobbyists are, how is representing a corporate entity being a "fake" lobbying group?

Because Fairplay USA called itself a "grass roots" lobbying group, when the only roots it had went (presumably) to Loveman's office. That's what astroturfing is. The whole organization was a lie, and the PPA supported it from Day 1.

Haley, every lobby calls itself "Grass Roots". Freedom Works, Tea Party Express, etc. Calling the organization a lie is patently false, since I've never seen them refute their affiliation with Caesars. I just don't get the machinations you and Druff seem to want to find around every corner. Not everything that occurs behind closed doors is some devious plot. Why wouldn't the PPA support Fairplay when their board includes people with ready access to DC like Freel and Tom Ridge?

[haleylh]

Because Fairplay USA called itself a "grass roots" lobbying group, when the only roots it had went (presumably) to Loveman's office. That's what astroturfing is. The whole organization was a lie, and the PPA supported it from Day 1.

Haley, every lobby calls itself "Grass Roots". Freedom Works, Tea Party Express, etc. Calling the organization a lie is patently false, since I've never seen them refute their affiliation with Caesars. I just don't get the machinations you and Druff seem to want to find around every corner. Not everything that occurs behind closed doors is some devious plot. Why wouldn't the PPA support Fairplay when their board includes people with ready access to DC like Freel and Tom Ridge?

That's a crock, Ruddock, but par for you. Here, go read something before you spew about crap you know little about. It's a basic primer:

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5017251_de...-lobbying.html

Now get out of the way. If Pappas and the PPA want to answer the questions I posed, let them. In the meantime, stop running interference for them.

[Steve-O]

Haley, every lobby calls itself "Grass Roots". Freedom Works, Tea Party Express, etc. Calling the organization a lie is patently false, since I've never seen them refute their affiliation with Caesars. I just don't get the machinations you and Druff seem to want to find around every corner. Not everything that occurs behind closed doors is some devious plot. Why wouldn't the PPA support Fairplay when their board includes people with ready access to DC like Freel and Tom Ridge?

That's a crock, Ruddock, but par for you. Here, go read something before you spew about crap you know little about. It's a basic primer:

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5017251_de...-lobbying.html

Now get out of the way. If Pappas and the PPA want to answer the questions I posed, let them. In the meantime, stop running interference for them.

Par for me? Running Interference? I don't know why you went in to full attack mode there but whatever, I think most people find me pretty well informed on politics even if they disagree with my politics, and I'm definitely not a PPA apologist. I know what astroturf lobbying is, but to condemn a lobbying group because they call themselves "Grass Roots" is naive to say the least: Virtually EVERY lobby calls itself Grass Roots. No lobby calls itself astroturf, its a play on words used by media.

I'll leave it at that and bow out of the conversation since I don't have any animosity toward you and frankly expect better from you than your last post.

[Dan Druff]

Here's some questions for Pappas. Easy-peasy. Maybe I'll have a few more later but this is at the top of my list.


Questions for John Pappas / PPA

1) Where can one find the annual financial filings for the Poker Players Alliance, a nonprofit organization, for the years 2009-2012? A link to this information does not seem to be present on the PPA website.

2) How much money did the PPA receive from corporate contributors PokerStars and Full Tilt, on a year-by-year basis? Please itemize: “Full Tilt’s contributions for the calendar year 2010 = $$$$” and so on. It’s okay to lump contributions to the PPA, to PokerPac, and to third-party organizations such as D’Amato’s firm together as a single total. I’m more interested in how much Stars and Tilt spent in $$$ that went through the PPA.

3) When did the PPA’s John Pappas first meet SunFirst Bank payment processor Jeremy Johnson? What was the nature of that meeting?

4) When did the PPA’s John Pappas first have contact with Jeremy Johnson, in the form of e-mails, phone calls, or through another medium? What was the nature of that contact, and for what purpose?

5) When did the PPA’s John Pappas first have contact with Mark Shurtleff and John Swallow, the former and present Utah Attorneys General? Was it due to Pappas’s prior work with Dittus Communications (and if so, on behalf of what lobbying cause), or was it through Pappas’s work as a staffer for Arizona Congressman John Shadegg?

I really should have consulted Haley before this interview. The Pappas questions wouldn't have likely been answered (since Rich isn't him, and can reasonably claim to not know), but I really wish I knew about #1 above, regarding the financial filings being unavailable.

I would be really curious to see these, as well. And if they're not made available, why is that?

I also wish I pressed harder for Rich to give the exact percentage of donations that came from Stars/Tilt.

No worries, though. Rich is posting in this thread and I would indeed like to know the answer to these, even if he can't answer the Pappas questions.

[Pooh]

Here's some questions for Pappas. Easy-peasy. Maybe I'll have a few more later but this is at the top of my list.


Questions for John Pappas / PPA

1) Where can one find the annual financial filings for the Poker Players Alliance, a nonprofit organization, for the years 2009-2012? A link to this information does not seem to be present on the PPA website.

2) How much money did the PPA receive from corporate contributors PokerStars and Full Tilt, on a year-by-year basis? Please itemize: “Full Tilt’s contributions for the calendar year 2010 = $$$$” and so on. It’s okay to lump contributions to the PPA, to PokerPac, and to third-party organizations such as D’Amato’s firm together as a single total. I’m more interested in how much Stars and Tilt spent in $$$ that went through the PPA.

3) When did the PPA’s John Pappas first meet SunFirst Bank payment processor Jeremy Johnson? What was the nature of that meeting?

4) When did the PPA’s John Pappas first have contact with Jeremy Johnson, in the form of e-mails, phone calls, or through another medium? What was the nature of that contact, and for what purpose?

5) When did the PPA’s John Pappas first have contact with Mark Shurtleff and John Swallow, the former and present Utah Attorneys General? Was it due to Pappas’s prior work with Dittus Communications (and if so, on behalf of what lobbying cause), or was it through Pappas’s work as a staffer for Arizona Congressman John Shadegg?

I really should have consulted Haley before this interview. The Pappas questions wouldn't have likely been answered (since Rich isn't him, and can reasonably claim to not know), but I really wish I knew about #1 above, regarding the financial filings being unavailable.

I would be really curious to see these, as well. And if they're not made available, why is that?

I also wish I pressed harder for Rich to give the exact percentage of donations that came from Stars/Tilt.

No worries, though. Rich is posting in this thread and I would indeed like to know the answer to these, even if he can't answer the Pappas questions.

You realize you went into this "debate" interview with 100% opinions versus 100% facts, which is why you lost miserably. Which is also why her highness said you were unbelievably unprepared for said "debate".

[Dan Druff]

I really should have consulted Haley before this interview. The Pappas questions wouldn't have likely been answered (since Rich isn't him, and can reasonably claim to not know), but I really wish I knew about #1 above, regarding the financial filings being unavailable.

I would be really curious to see these, as well. And if they're not made available, why is that?

I also wish I pressed harder for Rich to give the exact percentage of donations that came from Stars/Tilt.

No worries, though. Rich is posting in this thread and I would indeed like to know the answer to these, even if he can't answer the Pappas questions.

You realize you went into this "debate" interview with 100% opinions versus 100% facts, which is why you lost miserably. Which is also why her highness said you were unbelievably unprepared for said "debate".

I see you're back in trolling mode, which is why I ignored you the first time.

"Her highness" didn't even hear the debate. She was going by one comment regarding the D'Amato press release about UB. You should have known this, because she stated that she hadn't listened at all, and asked if it was worth 3 hours of her time to do so.

My "opinions" were based upon things I witnessed over the years regarding the PPA. Obviously the difficult part is debating with someone who is saying, "We did this" and I have to then have the proof in front of me that they actually didn't. That is an extremely tough stance from which to be debating, unless you know every little detail of the organization and every move they've made.

It turned out that Rich was not ready to concede anything, though, even when I did have the hard facts in front of me or in memory (such as the UB e-mail issue).

I do wish I stuck to more concrete items to debate (to where nothing was subjective, but more of a did-you-or-didn't-you variety), as well as pressed for more specific info on their funding, so we could find out how much Pokerstars and Full Tilt really owned/owns them. That piece of info Haley presented (that their financials can't be found, despite being a nonprofit) would have fit in great with that theme, but I only found out about it today.

I also wish I put a time limit on responses, and was more willing to interrupt when the answers veered off topic. In hindsight, the lack of doing both of these was a mistake, and one I won't repeat for future debates on the show.

If you want to continue discussing this with me, I'm game, but if you are just in arrogant troll mode to get a reaction out of me, please just ignore this message.

[difpos]

I Actually just visited the site to see if other felt the same about the buttfking RM delvered to Druff. Druff once again got so schooled that it is embarrassing the title of the thread is ppa DEBATE.

[TheEngineer]

Here's some questions for Pappas. Easy-peasy. Maybe I'll have a few more later but this is at the top of my list.

Questions for John Pappas / PPA...

I definitely encourage you to email these and any other questions you have to John Pappas. Per his offer to you, I'm sure he'll be more than happy to oblige.

[haleylh]

Here's some questions for Pappas. Easy-peasy. Maybe I'll have a few more later but this is at the top of my list.

Questions for John Pappas / PPA...

I definitely encourage you to email these and any other questions you have to John Pappas. Per his offer to you, I'm sure he'll be more than happy to oblige.

Thanks, Rich, but I'd like the answers posted publicly. Please direct him to this thread.

[TheEngineer]

I definitely encourage you to email these and any other questions you have to John Pappas. Per his offer to you, I'm sure he'll be more than happy to oblige.

Thanks, Rich, but I'd like the answers posted publicly. Please direct him to this thread.

You can feel free to post them publicly, Haley. I thought that was a given.

[Pooh]

You realize you went into this "debate" interview with 100% opinions versus 100% facts, which is why you lost miserably. Which is also why her highness said you were unbelievably unprepared for said "debate".

I see you're back in trolling mode, which is why I ignored you the first time.

"Her highness" didn't even hear the debate. She was going by one comment regarding the D'Amato press release about UB. You should have known this, because she stated that she hadn't listened at all, and asked if it was worth 3 hours of her time to do so.

My "opinions" were based upon things I witnessed over the years regarding the PPA. Obviously the difficult part is debating with someone who is saying, "We did this" and I have to then have the proof in front of me that they actually didn't. That is an extremely tough stance from which to be debating, unless you know every little detail of the organization and every move they've made.

It turned out that Rich was not ready to concede anything, though, even when I did have the hard facts in front of me or in memory (such as the UB e-mail issue).

I do wish I stuck to more concrete items to debate (to where nothing was subjective, but more of a did-you-or-didn't-you variety), as well as pressed for more specific info on their funding, so we could find out how much Pokerstars and Full Tilt really owned/owns them. That piece of info Haley presented (that their financials can't be found, despite being a nonprofit) would have fit in great with that theme, but I only found out about it today.

I also wish I put a time limit on responses, and was more willing to interrupt when the answers veered off topic. In hindsight, the lack of doing both of these was a mistake, and one I won't repeat for future debates on the show.

If you want to continue discussing this with me, I'm game, but if you are just in arrogant troll mode to get a reaction out of me, please just ignore this message.

You think I'm arrogant? Princess Haley is the definition of arrogant bitch, which is why hardly nobody likes her. I have no idea but I'd guess she is way below average in looks and very likely to be overweight and undercompensated.

Back on topic. You think I'm loving it because you didn't do your research going in? Research means you should know or have an idea how much those companies have donated to the PPA and if not then ask the question and press for answers.

I've always been on your side but beating the UB thing from 5 years ago to death and then nit picking the way some polls/emails were written was just too much. You came across as butt hurt because they never responded to any of your advice in the past. But yeah I'm trolling you, definitely. Makes sense because a lot of trolls donate to your show/website. Gimme a break.

[Dan Druff]

I see you're back in trolling mode, which is why I ignored you the first time.

"Her highness" didn't even hear the debate. She was going by one comment regarding the D'Amato press release about UB. You should have known this, because she stated that she hadn't listened at all, and asked if it was worth 3 hours of her time to do so.

My "opinions" were based upon things I witnessed over the years regarding the PPA. Obviously the difficult part is debating with someone who is saying, "We did this" and I have to then have the proof in front of me that they actually didn't. That is an extremely tough stance from which to be debating, unless you know every little detail of the organization and every move they've made.

It turned out that Rich was not ready to concede anything, though, even when I did have the hard facts in front of me or in memory (such as the UB e-mail issue).

I do wish I stuck to more concrete items to debate (to where nothing was subjective, but more of a did-you-or-didn't-you variety), as well as pressed for more specific info on their funding, so we could find out how much Pokerstars and Full Tilt really owned/owns them. That piece of info Haley presented (that their financials can't be found, despite being a nonprofit) would have fit in great with that theme, but I only found out about it today.

I also wish I put a time limit on responses, and was more willing to interrupt when the answers veered off topic. In hindsight, the lack of doing both of these was a mistake, and one I won't repeat for future debates on the show.

If you want to continue discussing this with me, I'm game, but if you are just in arrogant troll mode to get a reaction out of me, please just ignore this message.

You think I'm arrogant? Princess Haley is the definition of arrogant bitch, which is why hardly nobody likes her. I have no idea but I'd guess she is way below average in looks and very likely to be overweight and undercompensated.

Back on topic. You think I'm loving it because you didn't do your research going in? Research means you should know or have an idea how much those companies have donated to the PPA and if not then ask the question and press for answers.

I've always been on your side but beating the UB thing from 5 years ago to death and then nit picking the way some polls/emails were written was just too much. You came across as butt hurt because they never responded to any of your advice in the past. But yeah I'm trolling you, definitely. Makes sense because a lot of trolls donate to your show/website. Gimme a break.

You go in and out of troll mode. I don't understand it. I've pointed this out before.

At times I really do like you, and I have always appreciated your generosity with the freeroll prizes.

I will be honest with you. I really did not care much whether or not the PPA took my advice in the past. In fact, being banned from 2+2 for the past 5 years, I haven't had much direct communication with the PPA leadership at all. I have more been an observer and occasional commentator, as far as they were concerned. Even before I was banned on 2+2, I rarely interacted in PPA threads. You are just way off base on this one.

As I said earlier in this thread, the 3 main things that bothered me about the PPA were:

- The "poker isn't gambling" strategy, which I felt was a waste of time and comprised too much of their efforts

- The defensiveness displayed on 2+2, rather than making their presence there more of a listen-to-the-constituents experience

- The silence on the UB issue, which personally angered me for obvious reasons

I still stand by all of the above beliefs. Even if the UB thing was 5 years ago and isn't a big issue anymore, it was and still is important to me. I hated the fact that UB was still so big prior to Black Friday, and that many players ignorant to the problems there lost money. Every time I played live poker and the subject came up, I realized how few people really knew what had gone on there, even after the 60 Minutes, the CNBC, and the hoopla on 2+2. I felt the PPA could have really done a lot of good by informing their huge member base as to what was really happening, and felt it was a huge mistake to not have done so.

I realize that this is a lot more personal to me than most others here, but it was something I felt merited discussion regardless.

[Pooh]

You think I'm arrogant? Princess Haley is the definition of arrogant bitch, which is why hardly nobody likes her. I have no idea but I'd guess she is way below average in looks and very likely to be overweight and undercompensated.

Back on topic. You think I'm loving it because you didn't do your research going in? Research means you should know or have an idea how much those companies have donated to the PPA and if not then ask the question and press for answers.

I've always been on your side but beating the UB thing from 5 years ago to death and then nit picking the way some polls/emails were written was just too much. You came across as butt hurt because they never responded to any of your advice in the past. But yeah I'm trolling you, definitely. Makes sense because a lot of trolls donate to your show/website. Gimme a break.

You go in and out of troll mode. I don't understand it. I've pointed this out before.

At times I really do like you, and I have always appreciated your generosity with the freeroll prizes.

I will be honest with you. I really did not care much whether or not the PPA took my advice in the past. In fact, being banned from 2+2 for the past 5 years, I haven't had much direct communication with the PPA leadership at all. I have more been an observer and occasional commentator, as far as they were concerned. Even before I was banned on 2+2, I rarely interacted in PPA threads. You are just way off base on this one.

As I said earlier in this thread, the 3 main things that bothered me about the PPA were:

- The "poker isn't gambling" strategy, which I felt was a waste of time and comprised too much of their efforts

- The defensiveness displayed on 2+2, rather than making their presence there more of a listen-to-the-constituents experience

- The silence on the UB issue, which personally angered me for obvious reasons

I still stand by all of the above beliefs. Even if the UB thing was 5 years ago and isn't a big issue anymore, it was and still is important to me. I hated the fact that UB was still so big prior to Black Friday, and that many players ignorant to the problems there lost money. Every time I played live poker and the subject came up, I realized how few people really knew what had gone on there, even after the 60 Minutes, the CNBC, and the hoopla on 2+2. I felt the PPA could have really done a lot of good by informing their huge member base as to what was really happening, and felt it was a huge mistake to not have done so.

I realize that this is a lot more personal to me than most others here, but it was something I felt merited discussion regardless.

I better get back on my meds.

Seriously, I do appreciate the effort you give each and every week regardless of whether I agree with your points or not. You can't win them all. It wasn't like you came across as an idiot or anything, just pressed too far on certain issues, imo.

[Dan Druff]

Regarding Haley, I would not describe her as arrogant.

She can be brusque and abrasive at times, but she's also an incredibly good investigative journalist, and has done more to bring information about the AP and UB scandals to the public than anyone.

She put an incredible amount of work into the whole thing (and still does), with very little financial gain from it (definitely not worth her time from that standpoint).

I have a lot of respect for her.

[Pooh]

Regarding Haley, I would not describe her as arrogant.

She can be brusque and abrasive at times, but she's also an incredibly good investigative journalist, and has done more to bring information about the AP and UB scandals to the public than anyone.

She put an incredible amount of work into the whole thing (and still does), with very little financial gain from it (definitely not worth her time from that standpoint).

I have a lot of respect for her.

When she wrote that to Stevo-O equals online bully which also usually equals arrogant, socially awkward slob in real life. It was pathetic and uncalled for. Fuck her.

[BeerAndPoker]

John Pappas just need to walk in the meeting and be like "I love it when they call me John Pappas" and then "I see some politicians tonight that should legalize poker, poker"!

[simpdog]

Everytime Druff posts, the % he lost the debate by goes up.

Druff, honestly it looks like at best you have 30% on your side and 70% against. Quit being so stubborn/arrogant and saying anyone who doesn't agree with you is trolling you.

You have opinions/beliefs about UB/AP and you are standing by them. That's fine, we understand.

But on the other hand if people bring up items (you losing the debate, any reference to peterdc/jasep) understand that they are entitled to their own opinions too.

[Dan Druff]

Everytime Druff posts, the % he lost the debate by goes up.

Druff, honestly it looks like at best you have 30% on your side and 70% against. Quit being so stubborn/arrogant and saying anyone who doesn't agree with you is trolling you.

You have opinions/beliefs about UB/AP and you are standing by them. That's fine, we understand.

But on the other hand if people bring up items (you losing the debate, any reference to peterdc/jasep) understand that they are entitled to their own opinions too.

Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions. That's why I'm fine with having members here that don't like or respect me -- as long as you respect the rules and vision of the site. That's also why I never delete messages here that are critical of me.