IS SEALS WITH CLUBS DONKDOWN??? (Update: Micon charged with a felony in Nevada)

[Shizzmoney]

Shizzmoney, I actually agree with most of your post.

I do think you are characterizing me in a way as a corporate/government/law-and-order apologist, and I am anything but that.

I was the first person to call out the "we got a complaint from Belgium" story as BS. Not tha the Belgian complaint was necessarily a lie, but LOL @ them starting an investigation (and taking 18 months to serve a search warrant) because some anonymous Belgian e-mailed them about Seals.

I said that clearly some powerful interest -- most likely Caesars or Stations (Ultimate Poker) -- complained about Seals, and demanded action, especially given Micon being the lowest of low hanging fruits to bust right there in Vegas.

So of course they cover up who was really behind the complaint which made them took action, probably to protect future campaign donations, and instead blame the whole thing on a Belgian guy.

L O FUCKING L.

Agreed, and Daredevil I think hit it right on the head when he mentioned that he thought Ultimate Poker was the "snitch".

The Fertittas have had a history of complaining to government when their shit fails; like for example they hosted a hearing about internet piracy cutting into their business (and therefore, they claim, the fighters' "potential earn", which is LOL b/c UFC fighters get screwed on pay for the most part). They also have complained about taxes and union wages affecting their ability to run a business; the same business that is around 2 billion in debt last I checked (it was at 3, but they have de-levered like most casinos since 2007).

The ironic thing is that I think internet piracy has CONTRIBUTED to the success of the UFC (and in a sense, Fight Pass is an emulation of what torrent sites were doing with their content). A lot like internet poker (where people can have the ability, unlike in live card rooms, to play for pennies and run it up), people who couldn't afford PPVs but decent internet could actually watch the fights.

Please let the complaint from Belgium be from Daniel Negreanu. That definitely didn't happen but I'm pretending it did because the thought it might of, is fucking hysterical.

[Dan Druff]

Blah blah the law is the law so if you blatantly break it you get in trouble blah

Druff - Repost that mouthful on 2+2 and let me know how it goes for you. All those "normally smart" people clearly need to be enlightened.

Given that you still don't get it, I'm starting to think you never will. This has nothing to do with "the law".

Everyone knows that online poker shouldn't be illegal. So it's not that hard to understand why people that like playing online poker are upset they lost another one of their dwindling options by virtue of some big interest bullshit, especially when others committed real crimes on a scale thousands of times worse and nothing happened to them, why is that?

We can agree that Micon was at least partly responsible (even as marketing guy) for running or being involved with an unlicensed site from a highly flawed location.

Seriously though, who gives fuck? Seals didn't steal/scam/cheat anybody. You play and bet sports on other unlicensed sites all the time. Why is that?

Based on the lack of options for USA players, Micon was able to generate a few hundred nerds willing to play for funny money just so they could cash out quickly and have a decent community to play cards.

He went about it wrong obviously but the whole "he made money when I could of" or "omg unlicensed rogue operator" stuff is just retarded.

The lawmakers made a horrendously dumb law for bullshit reasons. While I don't advocate breaking laws and thumbing your nose at enforcement, jail is by no means anywhere near the proper punishment for a guy like Micon.

These "laws" you have such a boner for... are they being enforced uniformly? I have a tee time tomorrow at 2 with Lederer if you're free?

Why is "he made money when everyone else otherwise could if they were also willing to break the law" a retarded argument?

It's absolutely true.

You are punishing everyone who followed the laws/regulations if you knowingly allow those breaking the laws to profit by doing so.

That's why it's absolutely idiotic to claim that Micon should have gone untouched by authorities because "poker should be legal".

Okay, so if we say that online poker should be legal, and even if we say that anyone should be able to run unregulated online gaming sites without consequence, why the fuck does Micon deserve a head start to make money from it when everyone else is waiting for the law to be changed.

It's a basic rule of society. Except in cases of extreme, life-changing injustice, you can't just pick and choose laws which you find inconvenient, break them, and then whine about persecution when you are arrested and prosecuted for it.

If you want to take a chance and offer illegal online poker to US residents (and get personally enriched in return), fine. I have no problem with that, just as I have no problem with sites like Bovada taking that same chance. However, it's retarded to whine about being persecuted when you get caught.

The bottom line is that Micon should not be let off simply because we don't agree with current online poker laws. He used those laws to profit big, and now he has to accept the negative consequences of those same laws.

[Pooh]

Druff - Repost that mouthful on 2+2 and let me know how it goes for you. All those "normally smart" people clearly need to be enlightened.

Given that you still don't get it, I'm starting to think you never will. This has nothing to do with "the law".

Everyone knows that online poker shouldn't be illegal. So it's not that hard to understand why people that like playing online poker are upset they lost another one of their dwindling options by virtue of some big interest bullshit, especially when others committed real crimes on a scale thousands of times worse and nothing happened to them, why is that?

We can agree that Micon was at least partly responsible (even as marketing guy) for running or being involved with an unlicensed site from a highly flawed location.

Seriously though, who gives fuck? Seals didn't steal/scam/cheat anybody. You play and bet sports on other unlicensed sites all the time. Why is that?

Based on the lack of options for USA players, Micon was able to generate a few hundred nerds willing to play for funny money just so they could cash out quickly and have a decent community to play cards.

He went about it wrong obviously but the whole "he made money when I could of" or "omg unlicensed rogue operator" stuff is just retarded.

The lawmakers made a horrendously dumb law for bullshit reasons. While I don't advocate breaking laws and thumbing your nose at enforcement, jail is by no means anywhere near the proper punishment for a guy like Micon.

These "laws" you have such a boner for... are they being enforced uniformly? I have a tee time tomorrow at 2 with Lederer if you're free?

Why is "he made money when everyone else otherwise could if they were also willing to break the law" a retarded argument?

It's absolutely true.

You are punishing everyone who followed the laws/regulations if you knowingly allow those breaking the laws to profit by doing so.

That's why it's absolutely idiotic to claim that Micon should have gone untouched by authorities because "poker should be legal".

Okay, so if we say that online poker should be legal, and even if we say that anyone should be able to run unregulated online gaming sites without consequence, why the fuck does Micon deserve a head start to make money from it when everyone else is waiting for the law to be changed.

It's a basic rule of society. Except in cases of extreme, life-changing injustice, you can't just pick and choose laws which you find inconvenient, break them, and then whine about persecution when you are arrested and prosecuted for it.

If you want to take a chance and offer illegal online poker to US residents (and get personally enriched in return), fine. I have no problem with that, just as I have no problem with sites like Bovada taking that same chance. However, it's retarded to whine about being persecuted when you get caught.

The bottom line is that Micon should not be let off simply because we don't agree with current online poker laws. He used those laws to profit big, and now he has to accept the negative consequences of those same laws.

It amazes me how people can't understand this.

[BHS]

The point is that others in the same industry broke the "law" a thousand times worse and nothing happened to them. They are not enforced uniformly.

The "law" in this case is actually a complete joke, as evidenced by the lack of true punishment for all the actual perilous figures in online poker history. Granted it excites you to see your former buddy in trouble but your bias is so strong that you haven't thought this one out clearly imo.

You're basically championing someone getting in trouble for knowingly breaking the law, despite the fact that the law itself is total bullshit and was created for bullshit reasons, not to protect anyone or do any actual good.

Not all laws are good laws, which of course does not support breaking them but...mindless laws should in no way be praised when they are enforced.

[Pooh]

You know you've made it big when you google your name and the first five stories are in a different language.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...+micon&tbm=nws

[Pooh]

The point is that others in the same industry broke the "law" a thousand times worse and nothing happened to them. They are not enforced uniformly.

The "law" in this case is actually a complete joke, as evidenced by the lack of true punishment for all the actual perilous figures in online poker history. Granted it excites you to see your former buddy in trouble but your bias is so strong that you haven't thought this one out clearly imo.

You're basically championing someone getting in trouble for knowingly breaking the law, despite the fact that the law itself is total bullshit and was created for bullshit reasons, not to protect anyone or do any actual good.

Not all laws are good laws, which of course does not support breaking them but...mindless laws should in no way be praised when they are enforced.

I may have spoke too soon about fps_russia.....

[Sanlmar]

You are punishing everyone who followed the laws/regulations if you knowingly allow those breaking the laws to profit by doing so.

Place any bets on the Dodgers game tonight with Bovada?

It's a basic rule of society. Except in cases of extreme, life-changing injustice, you can't just pick and choose laws which you find inconvenient, break them,

.
regardless of the shenanigans & devious methods (Safe Ports Bill) used by game playing legislators. Pledge Allegiance. I will defy stupid laws when I see fit.

You have elected a tone and a line of commentary with this story that is unimaginative, straight-laced and frankly dull. I can't help but feel personal feelings have limited your creative thinking & range. But that's just me.

I will relisten to Drexel's reaction to the story during the last radio show to try to pinpoint why his take resonates with me and yours does not. Just to satisfy my own curiousity. I suggest you relisten too b/c my memory is that you really weren't having a fully engaged dialogue with him. Just the facts please sort of demeanor. It didn't work. Daredevil was kind of catatonic too - and I think he has otherwise been a very good cohost.

I am out of step with what is going on here and will back off cause I am just gonna start trolling - I am that annoyed.

[Pooh]

Place any bets on the Dodgers game tonight with Bovada?

It's a basic rule of society. Except in cases of extreme, life-changing injustice, you can't just pick and choose laws which you find inconvenient, break them,

.

regardless of the shenanigans & devious methods (Safe Ports Bill) used by game playing legislators. Pledge Allegiance.

You have elected a tone and a line of commentary with this story that is unimaginative, straight-laced and frankly dull. I can't help but feel personal feelings have limited your creative thinking & range. But that's just me.

I will relisten to Drexel's reaction to the story during the last radio show to try to pinpoint why his take resonates with me and yours does not. Just to satisfy my own curiousity. I suggest you relisten too b/c my memory is that you really weren't having a fully engaged dialogue with him. Just the facts please sort of demeanor. It didn't work. Daredevil was kind of catatonic too - and I think he has otherwise been a very good cohost.

I am out of step with what is going on here and will back off cause I am just gonna start trolling - I am that annoyed.

would you let drex tea bag you right now? be honest.

[FPS_Russia]

Taboo subject: Say you were Micon and the prosecutor offers you a moderate fine and probation and drop the felony upon completion plea deal in exchange for your cooperation. You have to tell them everything about your business partners and their operation and you do indeed know their identity and operation.


Refuse to cooperate and you'll get a presumptive 5 to 7 years in prison, cooperate and you go home tonight.

Do you snitch?

If you say no and start quoting rap lyrics i say you're a fucking liar and can't be trusted.

There was a real DEA show on spike for a while not a fake or re enactment show and the offers they would give for cooperation were so fucking insanely +ev. those guys turned hardened thugs in to snitches with alarming ease.

Don't put yourself in a position to rat or be ratted on period.

[limitles]

Taboo subject: Say you were Micon and the prosecutor offers you a moderate fine and probation and drop the felony upon completion plea deal in exchange for your cooperation. You have to tell them everything about your business partners and their operation and you do indeed know their identity and operation.


Refuse to cooperate and you'll get a presumptive 5 to 7 years in prison, cooperate and you go home tonight.

Do you snitch?

If you say no and start quoting rap lyrics i say you're a fucking liar and can't be trusted.

There was a real DEA show on spike for a while not a fake or re enactment show and the offers they would give for cooperation were so fucking insanely +ev. those guys turned hardened thugs in to snitches with alarming ease.

Don't put yourself in a position to rat or be ratted on period.

Nevada State Gaming Commission. How long has this laughable authority been allowed to exist. They are as corrupt as the U.S. Government if that's possible. Bullies with money and the ability to chuck your ass in jail or at least make their big threats until they see some money.

Fuck the U.S. Government. I'd move to Bulgaria before cooperating with those two faced bastards.

[Pooh]

Taboo subject: Say you were Micon and the prosecutor offers you a moderate fine and probation and drop the felony upon completion plea deal in exchange for your cooperation. You have to tell them everything about your business partners and their operation and you do indeed know their identity and operation.


Refuse to cooperate and you'll get a presumptive 5 to 7 years in prison, cooperate and you go home tonight.

Do you snitch?

If you say no and start quoting rap lyrics i say you're a fucking liar and can't be trusted.

There was a real DEA show on spike for a while not a fake or re enactment show and the offers they would give for cooperation were so fucking insanely +ev. those guys turned hardened thugs in to snitches with alarming ease.

Don't put yourself in a position to rat or be ratted on period.

moderate fine, probation and no prison is a no brainer. anyone who says otherwise is full of shit.

[Dan Druff]

Place any bets on the Dodgers game tonight with Bovada?

Terrible example. Placing bets on unlicensed sites is not against the law.

But even if it were, there's a HUGE difference between being a user of an illegal service and a provider of it.

It's also a terrible example because I'm not enjoying any kind of competitive advantage by being able to place sportsbets on Bovada. I am doing the exact same gambling I could do in a Vegas casino, but just with a different bookmaker.

Running an unlicensed site is completely different. Not only are you putting customers at risk by not having gone through any kind of vetting or regulatory process, but you are also making lots of money by offering an illegal service that you otherwise couldn't make if you were following the law.

Law breakers should never be favored over law followers. Period.

[You have elected a tone and a line of commentary with this story that is unimaginative, straight-laced and frankly dull. I can't help but feel personal feelings have limited your creative thinking & range. But that's just me.

I will relisten to Drexel's reaction to the story during the last radio show to try to pinpoint why his take resonates with me and yours does not. Just to satisfy my own curiousity. I suggest you relisten too b/c my memory is that you really weren't having a fully engaged dialogue with him. Just the facts please sort of demeanor. It didn't work. Daredevil was kind of catatonic too - and I think he has otherwise been a very good cohost.

I am out of step with what is going on here and will back off cause I am just gonna start trolling - I am that annoyed.

You don't have to re-listen. I can answer this for you.

Aside from the fact that any show is simply better with Brandon's presence, the real reason you loved his commentary and disliked mine (and Daredevil's) is because you have an absolute hatred of the concept of government regulation of online poker. You and I have been down this road of debate before. Daredevil and I took a position of, "There are laws and regulations regarding providing online poker, Micon knowingly broke them and benefited from doing so, and now he has to pay the price". Drexel did not take this position, but rather provided us with general thoughts about Micon's fate and colorful stories about St. Maarten and Steve the Bodyguard. Drexel didn't necessarily disagree with our takes (I don't know his position, to be honest), but he didn't touch upon the subject which you hate so much. I'm not criticizing him for this, as he only had limited time to talk and a bad connection. Anyway, that's why you enjoyed his segment and disliked ours.

I admitted at the beginning of the show that I have a bias about the situation.

But I'm also not deviating from my long-held viewpoint that providers of illegal/unlicensed online poker are not heroes or freedom fighters, but rather profiteers who are benefiting from extremely decreased competition due to the illegality of what they're doing.

Simply put, I don't hate them for doing it, and I will sometimes use their services, but I'm not going to cry for them when they get caught.

Much like you shouldn't cry for me when I sit down at a poker table and lose a large sum of money.

In both cases, it's a calculated risk, and you can't bitch about the consequences when you lose.

[Dan Druff]

It's also important to understand that Micon was breaking the law for profit.

I can sometimes respect those who break the law for a cause that is important to them, provided their actions aren't too extreme and don't harm innocent people.

But when you're "rebelling" against the law simply to line your own pockets, you are not deserving of any sympathy or adulation, and definitely shouldn't be asking for donations for a legal defense fund when you're caught.

[abrown83]

I am sure I am going to have to post this a least a dozen more times in this thread.

1. Doesn't matter if he owned Seals or not by profiting from Seals he is guilty of a class b felony.

2. Seals, Stars/Full Tilt are very different one is a state case, one was a federal case. The comparisons are retarded at best.

[Shizzmoney]

Nevada State Gaming Commission. How long has this laughable authority been allowed to exist. They are as corrupt as the U.S. Government if that's possible. Bullies with money and the ability to chuck your ass in jail or at least make their big threats until they see some money.

Fuck the U.S. Government. I'd move to Bulgaria before cooperating with those two faced bastards.

The fact the NGC has guns is amazing in itself.

The Nevada Athletic Commission isn't run by the smartest bulbs in the garden, either.

[GambleBotsChafedPenis]

somebody raised this question earlier in this thread....

does this even happen if micon was smart enough to drive an hour south to Arizona to set up shop?

id say no...

[badguy23]

Druff - Repost that mouthful on 2+2 and let me know how it goes for you. All those "normally smart" people clearly need to be enlightened.

Given that you still don't get it, I'm starting to think you never will. This has nothing to do with "the law".

Everyone knows that online poker shouldn't be illegal. So it's not that hard to understand why people that like playing online poker are upset they lost another one of their dwindling options by virtue of some big interest bullshit, especially when others committed real crimes on a scale thousands of times worse and nothing happened to them, why is that?

We can agree that Micon was at least partly responsible (even as marketing guy) for running or being involved with an unlicensed site from a highly flawed location.

Seriously though, who gives fuck? Seals didn't steal/scam/cheat anybody. You play and bet sports on other unlicensed sites all the time. Why is that?

Based on the lack of options for USA players, Micon was able to generate a few hundred nerds willing to play for funny money just so they could cash out quickly and have a decent community to play cards.

He went about it wrong obviously but the whole "he made money when I could of" or "omg unlicensed rogue operator" stuff is just retarded.

The lawmakers made a horrendously dumb law for bullshit reasons. While I don't advocate breaking laws and thumbing your nose at enforcement, jail is by no means anywhere near the proper punishment for a guy like Micon.

These "laws" you have such a boner for... are they being enforced uniformly? I have a tee time tomorrow at 2 with Lederer if you're free?

Why is "he made money when everyone else otherwise could if they were also willing to break the law" a retarded argument?

It's absolutely true.

You are punishing everyone who followed the laws/regulations if you knowingly allow those breaking the laws to profit by doing so.

That's why it's absolutely idiotic to claim that Micon should have gone untouched by authorities because "poker should be legal".

Okay, so if we say that online poker should be legal, and even if we say that anyone should be able to run unregulated online gaming sites without consequence, why the fuck does Micon deserve a head start to make money from it when everyone else is waiting for the law to be changed.

It's a basic rule of society. Except in cases of extreme, life-changing injustice, you can't just pick and choose laws which you find inconvenient, break them, and then whine about persecution when you are arrested and prosecuted for it.

If you want to take a chance and offer illegal online poker to US residents (and get personally enriched in return), fine. I have no problem with that, just as I have no problem with sites like Bovada taking that same chance. However, it's retarded to whine about being persecuted when you get caught.

The bottom line is that Micon should not be let off simply because we don't agree with current online poker laws. He used those laws to profit big, and now he has to accept the negative consequences of those same laws.

Bro really?? Are You celebrating with a Big Gulp of Pepsi?? Woo-Hoo Micon is in trouble!! You 2 were close friends for many years and for you to spew this bs u r spewing shows a lot more about you then him. He was your friend before bro. Wishing you to have a heart attack LOL Guy's facing the biggest battle of his life.. Only thing similar was Druff vs Micon accsess to pm's on donkdown!! Get a fucking grip..

Better yet go to jail for a few day's champ!! I'm sure a few Subway sandwich makers can make this happen.

[BHS]

Terrible example. Placing bets on unlicensed sites is not against the law.

But even if it were, there's a HUGE difference between being a user of an illegal service and a provider of it.

Ok good to know that the providers of sites like Bovada that you voluntarily play on should be punished for providing you the ability to play lol

If it really bothered you that providers were breaking the law, wouldn't you be ethically inclined to try to at least cover the subject in a blog or on pfa radio?

I admitted at the beginning of the show that I have a bias about the situation.

As expected.

The focal point here should no be that "omg Micon is such an idiot, fuck him, etc" as many of you have maintained that stance since pretty much forever and for sure after the DD/Drexel/Druff fallout. We all understand he broke the law and thumbed his nose at the authority and those decisions proved to be very problematic.

The problem for me is that online poker is broken and this case is a manifestation of the everything that's bullshit. Seals didn't rip anyone off, it was an honest site with fast, reliable cash-outs and no fees. To have that option was quite refreshing actually.

[badguy23]

Druff Im sure u r still mad at the people in grade school who called you Todd is Odd, Or the times u were picked last for Kick Ball. You still mad at the coach who called u a jew, kike and said its right field or noting Dan cuz he forgot your name?? Then u said I want to play first base like Fred Mcgriff.

Coach says: Dan Druff get to right field we don't give a fuck about the crime dog we want to win u idiot..

Stop lying how u got your nickname bro. That shit happened in right field

Dan D Ruff

Vanuys California 8-9 yr old Mighty Mites Baseball Team

[chinamaniac]

TODD IS GOD/ thread