Vegas Struggling (April 28, 2025)

[Phinnster]

Over the last 20+ years, Ive seen it mane times.

Lets deep dive into this as you two are the lay persons that only know the surface info. And Druff, respectfully, youve never been in a union before and only know one side.

Whats typical non union-

Constant high employee turn over rate gives each employer roughly a 25% REDUCTION in productivity. Employer has to constantly advertise, onboard, outfit, orientate, train etc...all to lose those employees to an bigger and better offer less than a year away. Non-union places do not offer proper training and continuous education. Employee is more of a liability vs an asset.

Whats typical union- Pay the employees what they are worth, offer good benefits and pay. This new employee will turn into a long term investment and will become more of an asset vs a liability. Productivity goes up with employee retention and that 25% loss in productivity goes down.

Union- When there is a work place violation, contract dispute or internal grievance- It can get handled internally and more cost efficiently when the union lawyers and employer can work towards a solution.

Non-union- The employee has to hire a lawyer to sue the employer. This is more expensive and time consuming.

An example I know very well- The two "Right to Work" states that do not recognize unions are Arizona and Utah. Every month I see fire departments in both Arizona and Utah beg to hire firefighter/paramedics and they will get them, for a bit. And then the cycle starts- these FF/PMs with real experience mostly all leave and go to California and Nevada for the better pay, benefits and retirements. This continuous cycle runs every year over and over. Most medics go to Orange County Fire, LA County Fire, City of Las Vegas, Clark County Fire and City of Henderson. They want better pay, better benefits, better retirement and a contract. One year, the state of Utah lost many medics to LA County Fire alone during a major hiring swept. And those Utah departments lost all of the money they laid down to send those employees to medic school. All of that time, money, on-boarding, outfitting just go right out the door to a union department.

In the end, "its cheaper to keep her" and invest in your employees as long term investments and embrace the union carrot that's in front of them.

Now watch all of the hotel service employees in AZ and UT leave for Vegas- its simply "follow the money".

Good news?

Yes, good news.

So you're complaining about how expensive Vegas is, yet think unskilled Casino employees making $35/hr is a good thing? How do you think they can afford to pay those wages? Oh wait I know, by raising prices that's how.

NO, I was never "complaining" about that, like most people, you took my words and twisted them to fit your agenda.

Let me clarify - My gripe is with the casino CEOs who raise prices and fees so they can get their self-entitled millions and then bounce. "Unskilled casino employees making $35 an hour is a good thing"- I never said that and have not seem that wage or skill level posted anywhere, where did you see that or did you just make it up? Raising prices- They could OR shift the entitled CEO's multi million dollar bonus money back to labor, say give the CEO just 5 million instead of the intended 10 million- he will sqweek by on that.

Also dont forget, contracts are bargained for and negotiated on BOTH sides of the table. The union can want want want, but not always get. Management side can only give up what they can afford, the problem is labor also knows the books as well at the table. Both sides come to the table well prepared.

Not to mention substandard Vegas service will only get worse once more Union employes are laid off to manage increased Labor costs.

Wrong and false. There is no auto set standard and union employees have been fired in the past. Performance issues can always be handled internally. Again, good employees follow good money and crap stays crap. If an employee has issues, they will be dealt with internally.

Also, dont forget, most of Las Vegas kitchen and service workers have already been union for decades now, this is not something completely new to Las Vegas and Clark County.

Remember- Good employees stay and become long term assets and keep productivity UP. Crap employees dont stay, high turnover hurts the business and become liabilities and keep the 25% in productivity constantly down.

Perfect example- If PFA was a hotel in Las Vegas...

Good employees I'd hire and retain- The Boz, Micky Crimm, Country678, Frank Rizzo, FTJesus, Dive Bar Dave, Split This, tgull and maybe One dollar "cry baby" box car. We would also hire LOL WOW and fit him in some where.

Bad/shit employees that are a liability- Sonatine, BCR, Sloppy Hoe, Richard Brodie, Les and the other cancer members here.

Why does Las Vegas and Clark County Fire want paramedics so bad? These "Paramedic Rescue " vans are major money makers. The money is in the EMS transport business. Below is Rescue 218 out of station 18, one of the busiest stations in the nation. So busy, they now have R218 as a second unit out of 18's.

Proof- Clark County Fire Department Launches Nationwide Recruitment Effort They are now grabbing people from all over the nation. And why not- No state income tax, No Social Security deduction and the employer (Clark County) pays 100% of your NV PERS retirement. Too sweet of a deal to pass up vs the non-union "right to work" state screwing you for an entire career.

From NV PERS- "Nevada's Public Employees' Retirement System (PERS) offers a unique structure where employers, particularly in the public sector, may cover the full employee contribution, meaning employees do not have to contribute out-of-pocket for retirement." Right to Work/anti union states Arizona and Utah do not offer this.

A joke told in the industry- You can work at the Bullhead City FD in Arizona OR go across the river to Clark County/Laughlin and double your pay.

Again, medics leave the non-union "Right to Work" states for Las Vegas and So Cal. The "Big 3" you always want- Union, Overtime and Pension. Why not double your pay, benefits and lifestyle?

How high do you think the turnover is at Apple? How about Microsoft? IBM? Oracle? Last time I checked none of them were unionized. That's what happens when you you are educated, skilled and motivated you don't need a union to protect you. Up here in Commie Canada where I live the largest group of employes in the country are unionized government workers. One of the reasons this country has such massive debt. Lazy postal workers who only work 3 or 4 days a week but get paid for 5, far left useless teachers who get summers, Xmas and a week in March off, school custodians who spend more time getting high than doing their job or the service workers at the unemployment office who have their "window closed" sign up every half hour so they can browse the internet. I know this because I have close friends who work in every one of those occupations. One was even the Chief Union steward for his local. I was also a steward at one of the companies I worked at when I was younger and stupid. The union was rock solid with heavy employee support. With every contract we threatened to strike unless we were given a substantial wage increase, with every employee caught stealing time, drunk on the job, manipulating their time cards, etc. grievances were filed and jobs were saved. Not a single person was ever fired while I worked there.That is until the company had enough and moved to Kentucky. Union gone and 300+ jobs lost. Yay unions!

BTW- How are the casinos supposed to get rid of underperforming workers when they are protected by the union? Also when I referenced substandard service getting worse it wasn't in relation to an employees ability to do the job it was referencing the common practice of employers laying off staff shortly after their labor costs rise due to higher wages. See fast food restaurants in California who are now using order touchscreens and being automated which is putting people out of work. That ridiculous minimum wage increase isn't so great afterall.

The $35/hr is in the AP article you claimed was good news:

"The latest contracts secured a historic 32% bump in pay over the life of the five-year contract. Union casino workers will earn an average $35 hourly, including benefits, by the end of it."


Just so we're clear I have no love for the Casino executives either, they desperately focus on hitting quarterly numbers while missing the big picture. Increasing costs for tourists is turning them off and they are going to miss their numbers on a regular basis if they don't make some changes. As others have said, people can just visit their locals and save money.

[desertrunner]

How high do you think the turnover is at Apple? How about Microsoft? IBM? Oracle? Last time I checked none of them were unionized. That's what happens when you you are educated, skilled and motivated you don't need a union to protect you.

I dont know as that is not my field. But you are using the same old generic auto-union language and youre incorrect. All of these companies have and will fire you any time, any day, any time regardless of talent, education or tenure. As for the the talent here in the USA youre referring to, WRONG, tech companies across California are laying off people almost weekly. Sorry, but your claims here are bogus.

Up here in Commie Canada where I live the largest group of employes in the country are unionized government workers. One of the reasons this country has such massive debt. Lazy postal workers who only work 3 or 4 days a week but get paid for 5, far left useless teachers who get summers, Xmas and a week in March off, school custodians who spend more time getting high than doing their job or the service workers at the unemployment office who have their "window closed" sign up every half hour so they can browse the internet. I know this because I have close friends who work in every one of those occupations. One was even the Chief Union steward for his local. I was also a steward at one of the companies I worked at when I was younger and stupid. The union was rock solid with heavy employee support. With every contract we threatened to strike unless we were given a substantial wage increase, with every employee caught stealing time, drunk on the job, manipulating their time cards, etc. grievances were filed and jobs were saved. Not a single person was ever fired while I worked there.That is until the company had enough and moved to Kentucky. Union gone and 300+ jobs lost. Yay unions!

First, this is only your story and only told as you see it. I know nothing about your topic points, but am smart enough to read between the lines that youre twisting the details some just to fit your agenda. Its obvious that everything you wrote here is not accurate. BUT the problem is with the system and the government, not the unions. Overhead management, laws and the government lets these issues happen. not the union.

BTW- How are the casinos supposed to get rid of underperforming workers when they are protected by the union?

Very, very easy- they give warnings, document, attempt to correct the behavior, suspension, demotion and if that fails- terminate. Then the union and employer can work it out. There is nothing to stop the employer from terminating. In California, union public safety employees can and have been terminated in the past- Police, fire, CHP etc. In California, a veteran police officer and union member for the California Lottery was wrongfully terminated for disagreeing with management after a winning lottery ticket investigation. She sued, won and got 500k. But as a gov. union member, she did get fired, happens often.

Also when I referenced substandard service getting worse it wasn't in relation to an employees ability to do the job it was referencing the common practice of employers laying off staff shortly after their labor costs rise due to higher wages.

I already covered this. Water seeks its own level and the crappy employees will slowly fall off or get removed. If they lay off, oh well. Good employers keep good employees and the trash usually gets taken out.

See fast food restaurants in California who are now using order touchscreens and being automated which is putting people out of work. That ridiculous minimum wage increase isn't so great afterall.

The fast food workers are not union. But thank the moronic CA state government for pushing that stupid idea after they were warned it would fail. Nothing to do with the new union in Las Vegas.

The $35/hr is in the AP article you claimed was good news:

"The latest contracts secured a historic 32% bump in pay over the life of the five-year contract. Union casino workers will earn an average $35 hourly, including benefits, by the end of it."

Yep- Good news. Thats 35% spread over 5 years equaling 7% per year. Guess what, the casino agreed to it and they know they need to keep their good employees or lose them to the other casinos who are also union and willing to pay. I addressed this above, they want to KEEP their good employees and know the high turnover rate will kill them and the 25% reduction in productivity will lead to profit loss. They figured out its better to hire and keep good employees and turn them into ASSETS instead of liability. Plus LV casinos are making record profits right now, so they know its better to pay labor and keep them happy. If you still doubt me, look up how In N Out Burger operates and then get back to me and admit, Im right. (You wont, but that's ok, I already know Im right)

Everything I just said...

Just so we're clear I have no love for the Casino executives either, they desperately focus on hitting quarterly numbers while missing the big picture. Increasing costs for tourists is turning them off and they are going to miss their numbers on a regular basis if they don't make some changes.

This one you got right, good job.

As others have said, people can just visit their locals and save money.

Been doing that for over 30 years now.

[go_buccos]

Casinos on the strip are now unionized

https://apnews.com/article/las-vegas...84ab17531b2e25

Sheldon Adelson would have literally shot up his own employee dining room before he would let his workers unionize.

I don’t have any links handy but the stories about some of his retaliatory tactics against Venetian workers who supported union membership are the stuff of legend. He was one vindictive MF.

[Dan Druff]

The biggest problem with unions on the Vegas strip is that it's completely dominated by one union -- The Culinary Workers Union Local 226.

This megaunion has 60,000 members, and despite the name implying it's just food service workers, it also includes maids, laundry service employees, hotel front desk workers, waiters, dishwashers, bellmen, and most other service positions you find in Vegas casino-hotels.

Therefore, when they strike, the strip gets crippled. Everything grinds to a halt, which is devastating for both tourists and the local economy.

This union has far too much power. Basically they've learned that the big corporate owners can't afford the effects of a Culinary Union strike, so it becomes a game where the union announces they're going to strike, makes outrageous demands, and then "compromises" to accept a lesser improvement in pay/benefits/conditions.

The union is constantly assessing how much extra they can squeeze out of the corporations, and they turn the screws until they get it.

This is very bad for Vegas, and in fact is some of the factor which has pushed up prices.

[Phinnster]

I dont know as that is not my field. But you are using the same old generic auto-union language and youre incorrect. All of these companies have and will fire you any time, any day, any time regardless of talent, education or tenure. As for the the talent here in the USA youre referring to, WRONG, tech companies across California are laying off people almost weekly. Sorry, but your claims here are bogus.

I didn't say anything about layoffs, I was addressing your wrong assertion that unions prevent turnover. Why would Apple fire a well educated, highly skilled, hard working dedicated employee? That doesn't sound like a way to run a highly successful company like Apple. If they lay off underperforming employees, who cares, going by what you say below that's perfectly fine with you.

First, this is only your story and only told as you see it. I know nothing about your topic points, but am smart enough to read between the lines that youre twisting the details some just to fit your agenda. Its obvious that everything you wrote here is not accurate. BUT the problem is with the system and the government, not the unions. Overhead management, laws and the government lets these issues happen. not the union.

What exactly am I twisting? That the Union Steward and mail carrier who happens to be one of my closest childhood friends hosted a regular poker night, often attended by other mail carriers? That during these games, they would casually joke about finishing their routes in 4 to 5 hours while still getting paid for 8.5? Or their favorite trick: if they were hungover or just didn’t feel like working that day, they would show up to sort the mail in the morning, then head home without delivering a thing, leaving it all for the next day’s route.
I can give you intimate details about my other claims, but why bother you'll just hand wave them away because they don't it your agenda. Ask me how I would know a plant in Brampton Ontario full Of CEP union members closed 20 years ago and is still operational today in Lexington Kentucky staffed by non union workers.

https://www.yellowpages.ca/bus/Ontar...102108286.html

https://www.se.com/us/en/download/do...655256_GMA-US/

Very, very easy- they give warnings, document, attempt to correct the behavior, suspension, demotion and if that fails- terminate. Then the union and employer can work it out. There is nothing to stop the employer from terminating. In California, union public safety employees can and have been terminated in the past- Police, fire, CHP etc. In California, a veteran police officer and union member for the California Lottery was wrongfully terminated for disagreeing with management after a winning lottery ticket investigation. She sued, won and got 500k. But as a gov. union member, she did get fired, happens often.

And what happens when the union constantly files grievances anytime a warning is given and when a grievance hearing is held they insist it gets rescinded or they will escalate union action or ask for arbitration hearings? Now what? I know this because I attended up to 10 of these a month. Pretty sure everyone is well aware of union employees caught exhibiting very bad behaviour wh who were defended successfully by their union. I can cite several examples if you'd like.

I already covered this. Water seeks its own level and the crappy employees will slowly fall off or get removed. If they lay off, oh well. Good employers keep good employees and the trash usually gets taken out.

Except that's not how it works. Union means seniority takes precedence. You think a union will allow a 25 year employee to be laid off while the company retains someone with 6 months service?

The fast food workers are not union. But thank the moronic CA state government for pushing that stupid idea after they were warned it would fail. Nothing to do with the new union in Las Vegas.

The point is, if your labor costs start being uncontrollable due to idiotic laws or unrealistic demands, companies will look for ways to trim and replace their workforce to save money.

Yep- Good news. Thats 35% spread over 5 years equaling 7% per year. Guess what, the casino agreed to it and they know they need to keep their good employees or lose them to the other casinos who are also union and willing to pay. I addressed this above, they want to KEEP their good employees and know the high turnover rate will kill them and the 25% reduction in productivity will lead to profit loss. They figured out its better to hire and keep good employees and turn them into ASSETS instead of liability. Plus LV casinos are making record profits right now, so they know its better to pay labor and keep them happy. If you still doubt me, look up how In N Out Burger operates and then get back to me and admit, Im right. (You wont, but that's ok, I already know Im right)

I see so when casinos keep raising prices to help pay these higher wages you're 100% on board correct? Remember no complaining about how expensive Vegas is, this is what you wanted.

Everything I just said...

Hmmmm is In N Out unionized? No? Imagine that.

[Dan Druff]

Don't want to break out on too much of a tangent, but In-N-Out is a great example of how running a company well, holding employees to high standards, and overpaying for those high standards can actually work out.

That 37-second video above kinda-sorta explains it, but misses the main point.

In-N-Out decided many years ago that they want friendly, competent employees who act professional and make few mistakes. In fast food, this is a difficult task, as many fast food workers are either very young, stupid, trashy, or a combination of all three.

In-N-Out came up with a simple-yet-elegant solution.

They start off by overpaying their store manager. The store manager is required to keep very close watch on the store, ride herd on the employees under him/her, and report back to the corporation when anything goes wrong. There are zero franchised units, and customers cannot call individual stores. The corporation has full visibility into everything.

All of the workers under the manager are also overpaid. But there's a catch.

If these workers are either incompetent, lazy, or rude, they quickly get fired. They get very few chances to get their act together. Perform well, or you're out on your ass.

The manager is incentivized to do this because he/she will also get fired if they run a shitty store with lousy employees.

The manager is judged both on the business levels of the location (compared to historical averages) and the number of complaints coming in. If any location gets a lot of customer complaints, the manager is insta-fired. Therefore, the managers keep a close watch on the store, not wanting to lose their dream position.

Nobody working at In-N-Out takes the attitude of, "It's no big deal if I get fired, I'll just go to another fast food place", because they know they won't get as much money if they do that. This especially includes the manager.

So it all works.



The only exception to this occurred between 2020 and mid-2022. This was due to the low-end worker shortage at the time, tied to the COVID checks and the rising gig economy, where it was very tough to find workers for fast food and similar jobs. Therefore, companies had to tolerate bad behavior from employees far more than they did before. During that 2-year span, In-N-Out tolerated a lot more fail than usual, and it was very noticeable. They made more mistakes in those 2 years on my orders than in the prior 30 years combined. This has since mostly corrected.

[tgull]

When I was younger, I used to like some of the cruise onboard activities. One time at 23 they approached me to be in one of their shows where I briefly played John Travolta. I’m not kidding. It was a gag where a cruise passenger (me) appears as Travolta, smoke comes on the stage, I exit, and a professional dancer who looks like me takes over. Then I come back after more smoke, and they express surprise at my skill.

I happened to look like the dancer (though I was too tall), so that’s why they approached me. Was fun.

Anyway I don’t go to any shows or onboard activities anymore, save for something gambling or sports related. Or karaoke sometimes.

I always eat in the pay dining area, and I do my own excursions at port.

Seems like tgull has it down now.

At this stage of my life I could not imagine not doing paid dining on a cruise. Back in the day they used to give you lobster tails one night of a cruise in the general (free) dining room. You would see people, especially those part of the 'family reunion' literally eating 7 lobster tails each. My girlfriend (now wife) commented to me nobody should get 7 of anything at dinner, especially a public dinner. She was right is was gag worthy watching people so excited stuffing their face, and I have never sat in the general dining room on a cruise since. The great thing is if you book your paid dining online a few weeks in advance you generally get a 25% discount.

I personally like going to the shows. They are cheesy but that makes them enjoyable. I did end up on stage many years ago, Wheel of Fortune. I was so drunk I finished last, you see that show it seems easy on TV, right until their is a spotlight in your face. I had 10 drinks in me so you get what you get.

[gut]

When I was younger, I used to like some of the cruise onboard activities. One time at 23 they approached me to be in one of their shows where I briefly played John Travolta. I’m not kidding. It was a gag where a cruise passenger (me) appears as Travolta, smoke comes on the stage, I exit, and a professional dancer who looks like me takes over. Then I come back after more smoke, and they express surprise at my skill.

I happened to look like the dancer (though I was too tall), so that’s why they approached me. Was fun.

Anyway I don’t go to any shows or onboard activities anymore, save for something gambling or sports related. Or karaoke sometimes.

I always eat in the pay dining area, and I do my own excursions at port.

Seems like tgull has it down now.

At this stage of my life I could not imagine not doing paid dining on a cruise. Back in the day they used to give you lobster tails one night of a cruise in the general (free) dining room. You would see people, especially those part of the 'family reunion' literally eating 7 lobster tails each. My girlfriend (now wife) commented to me nobody should get 7 of anything at dinner, especially a public dinner. She was right is was gag worthy watching people so excited stuffing their face, and I have never sat in the general dining room on a cruise since. The great thing is if you book your paid dining online a few weeks in advance you generally get a 25% discount.

I personally like going to the shows. They are cheesy but that makes them enjoyable. I did end up on stage many years ago, Wheel of Fortune. I was so drunk I finished last, you see that show it seems easy on TV, right until their is a spotlight in your face. I had 10 drinks in me so you get what you get.